• Spelling out the "draining the swamps" theory
• So you guys support paper tigers, do you?
Posted by
youngmarxist
at
2007-01-10 04:23 PM
I have ridiculed the basic premise of the PNAC (that the USA can impose its will on the world).
I'll support PNAC proposals when I think they are correct, and oppose them when I think they are wrong. What do you do, sir? |
• Think realistically: the US is weak, not strong
Posted by
keza
at
2007-01-10 04:27 PM
Dalek,
I think DavidMc's short comment is well worth your consideration because it goes to the heart of the matter. He wrote: It seems to me that since the inception of its post-war ascendency, the US has never had less influence in the world nor less political will to project power.It is in this context that we need to view current US policy. Exercise your imagination and memory for a minute and think back to the late '60s when LBJ visited Australia. “All the way with LBJ” was the predominant mood of the people and of course the media too. Those of us who turned out to demonstrate against the war in The remarkable thing by today's standards in that the streets at that time were lined with ordinary Australians waving US flags and cheering the The world has changed. Despite its military strength the US is no longer a mighty power. It knows this. It knows that it can no longer do just what it likes and has (rationally) adapted to this. It has no choice now but to accept that its survival into the 21st century depends upon spreading bourgois democracy rather than to continue propping up the worst reactionaries throughout the world. As progressives we see this as a good thing. Of course we know that bourgoeis democracy falls far short of complete liberation. But this does not lead us to think that we should support reactionaries and backward groups who want to stop this process! We know that people are better off living in modern societies with elections, access to the internet, to television, to education, to basic human rights etc. We also know that once people have these things they will still be unsatisfied and want more. But the struggle for most people in the world is to achieve the things that we who live in modern bourgoeis democracies take for granted. The US has been forced to back away from its old policies. We see this as a victory for the people of the world and a defeat for US imperialism. Do you seriously think that the US is in any position to be imposing "a modern version of fascism" across the planet????. Come on! The people of the world would not stand for it! The US has never been more isolated. No-one comes out in the streets to cheer for the president of the great USA any more. That is a highly significant empirical fact about the current world situation. Put yourself in the shoes of the US leadership. What sort of policy would you be following if you were in their position? Sure they continue to talk a lot of bullshit about "American empire" and how powerful they are. They have to do that. But what is their real position? And how can they deal with it? What are their real choices. |
• Re: Spelling out the "draining the swamps" theory
Posted by
dalek
at
2007-01-10 05:47 PM
Keza, at last some common ground. I agree in principle with your last post. I do have some quibbles:
More soon. Have to go. Dalek. |
• Re: Spelling out the "draining the swamps" theory
Posted by
dalek
at
2007-01-10 06:48 PM
Keza, I guess my major objection to LSP is your support for imperial war as a tool for the liberation of the people of the globe. It's all very well to quote a 19th century Engel for his support for the US imperial war against Mexico on the grounds that the victims of this war were "lazy Mexicans" but it is another to support the continuation of this process. Even on the most banal and pragmatic grounds the "war on terror" as it is being waged in Iraq is to be opposed as it is clearly failing, was always destined to fail because you cannot march foreign troops into another country and then proceed to wantonly kill maim and humiliate the people and then expect them to welcome you into their homes. You may really get off on this but I don't, clearly those romantic pictures of Peshemerger women fighters you publish are as far as your horizon goes. When the US or its proxy nukes Iran, will you stand and cheer wildly?
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• more on US weakness and what this means
Posted by
keza
at
2007-01-11 03:19 AM
Dalek, I'm glad you think we have some common ground and "agree in principle" with this post of mine. In that post I argued that the US is weaker than it has ever been and that we need to view its current policy in that context. By "weak" of course I meant that in contrast to 40 years ago, it is bitterly disliked and mistrusted1 by the majority of people on the planet. My conclusion was that (a ) this weakness means that it has been forced to adopt a new policy (a pro-democracy one) and (b) this weakness also means that it is absurd to suggest that it has plans to extend its empire by introducing a "modern form of fascism" (as you put it) in the ME and across the globe. Unfortunately you haven't addressed my argument but have gone on to produce a largely disconnected series of assertions, questions and challenges . You ask: If it is so weak why are you such a vociferous supporter of its military adventures in Iraq, Lebanon (by proxy) Somalia(I presume) and soon Iran? Why do you support its slaughter of the innocents in the ME and elsewhere.That's clearly a loaded and rhetorical question. I have never said that I "support its slaughter of the innocents in the ME and elsewhere." What I have said is that I support it overthrowing a fascist dictatorship and lending its support to the establishing of a democratic society in Iraq. Innocents are being slaughtered not by the US but by those who oppose democratic change in the region and also as a result of sectarian strife that has been deliberately triggered by these anti-democratic forces. I have argued in several posts that in my view the sectarian violence that we are seeing in Iraq is a dinner party compared to what we would be seeing had the US just left the place alone until the regime there had fallen apart. These are the points that you need to respond to, rather than just coming up with rhetorical questions, as above. I'd like to see you make a case for what you think should have happened (and to argue why your preferred scenario was actually possible, rather than just a case of wishful thinking). As part of the same quetion you asked: "If it is so weak why are you such a vociferous supporter of its military adventures in Iraq?". This part of that question doesn't make a lot of sense to me. It should be obvious to you from what I've written elsewhere that it is this US weakness which leads me to believe that it has no alternative but to follow a policy of democratization and that when GWB talks of the need for democracy, freedom, respect for basic human rights and so on in the ME he is being quite truthful. Why would I not support that? Why would you not support that? You also stated: It might not be a mighty power but it is armed to the teeth and has the bombI won't quibble with you there. However what is your point? I have never denied that the US is militarily still powerful. Its weakness is due to the fact that people throughout the world will no longer stand for being dominated by its miitary brute force. The US was also "armed to the teeth and had the bomb" during the Vietnam war. It couldn't win there all the same. It is not stupid enough to believe that 30 years later when it is even less popular, it could take over Iraq. Then you wrote: As long a all the important global trade is carried out in US dollar it is top dog. (This fact alone keeps the US afloat)Sure, the US still dominates the world economically. However this does not mean it can do just what it likes. It is constrained by reality. And the reality is that it can no longer rule by propping up dictators, installing puppet regimes and so on. Once again, I'm glad about that. Your final question in that message is: If you were opposed to Johnstons visit in the late 60"s why would you berate the people of auatralia for not getting out in their 1000's to support a Bush visit, after all is he not the new beacon of democracy and light?My support for democratization in the ME does not mean that I would be happy to see Australians coming out into the streets to cheer a US president. Those days of blind adulation for US imperialism are over, and that's a good thing. In a subsequent post you write: Even on the most banal and pragmatic grounds the "war on terror" as it is being waged in Iraq is to be opposed as it is clearly failing, was always destined to fail because you cannot march foreign troops into another country and then proceed to wantonly kill maim and humiliate the people and then expect them to welcome you into their homes.The US military is not "wantonly killing and maining the people of Iraq". The death and destruction in Iraq would be far (FAR) worse if there was no US presence. Sure, if the US had not invaded the Iraqi people might still be living under the "peace' of fascism? Is that what you support? You need to provide a clear answer to this. Do you think that the Iraqis would have been better off if the place had just been left alone? I ask you again - what other scenario would have been better (and possible) for the Iraqi people? Don't finess this one by just waving your hand and talking in generalities about how it is always better for people to just "liberate themselves". You need to spell out your alternative and explain why you think there was a way forward which would have involved less pain and suffering than the Iraqis are experiencing now. 1 In saying that the US is "bitterly disliked and mistrusted" by most people in the world I am not of course suggesting that the people of the world reject the good things about the USA (of which there are many). Blind hatred of the USA, of modernity and development is characteristic of pseudo-left ideology and various fascist elements such as AL Quaeda , The Taleban etc |
• Re: Spelling out the "draining the swamps" theory
Posted by
DavidMc
at
2007-01-11 05:31 AM
dalek, in your posting at 2007-01-10 05:47 PM, you say that all the important trade is carried out in US dollars and this keeps the US afloat.
International finance is not exactly my strong point, but my understanding is that any special role for the US dollar died with Bretton Woods decades ago. |
• Re: Spelling out the "draining the swamps" theory
Posted by
dalek
at
2007-01-11 03:30 PM
Its all about commodity trading. for example the oil trade is carried out almost exclusively in US dollars, this means that everytime a barrel of oil (for example) changes hands the US gets a percentage. Virtually all primary commodities are traded in US dollars (oil steel copper etc etc). In effect the entire world pays "tribute' to the US every time a primary commodity changes hands. Also many consumer and most military goods are traded in dollars. The cash flow is huge. One of Saddams big "mistakes" was to try to "liberate" Iraqi oil from the dollar trade. some have argued that that was the real reason the US invaded Iraq. I think it was a tad more complex than that. I will dig some material up and post it. Until the US dollar loses its status as the currency for commodity trade the US is No1. Capish?
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• Re: Spelling out the "draining the swamps" theory
Posted by
dalek
at
2007-01-11 03:39 PM
David, This might help understand the importance of dollar "Hegemony". This guy is game; I wonder if he is not now staring insanely at the wall in Gitmo with all his fingernails spread all over the place.
US dollar hegemony has got to go This is easier done than imagained. The starting point is for the major exporting nations each to unilaterally require that all its exports be payable only in its currency, so that the global finance architecture will turn into a multi-currency regime overnight. There would be no need for reserve currencies and exchange rates would reflect market fundamentals of world trade. As for aggregate demand management, Asia leads the world in both overcapacity and underconsumption. It is high time for Asia to realize the potential of its market power. If the people of Asia are to be compensated fairly for their labor, the global economy will see its fastest growth ever. Henry C K Liu is chairman of the New York-based Liu Investment Group. |
• Re: Spelling out the "draining the swamps" theory
Posted by
dalek
at
2007-01-11 03:44 PM
Extract from: US dollar hegemony has got to go The current international finance architecture is based on the US dollar as the dominant reserve currency, which now accounts for 68 percent of global currency reserves, up from 51 percent a decade ago. Yet in 2000, the US share of global exports (US$781.1 billon out of a world total of $6.2 trillion) was only 12.3 percent and its share of global imports ($1.257 trillion out of a world total of $6.65 trillion) was 18.9 percent. World merchandise exports per capita amounted to $1,094 in 2000, while 30 percent of the world's population lived on less than $1 a day, about one-third of per capita export value. Now that's imperialism guys: |
• Re: Spelling out the "draining the swamps" theory
Posted by
arthur
at
2007-01-12 12:38 AM
The US is now the world's biggest debtor nation and financial markets are completely unbalanced pointing to an inevitable enormous crisis.
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• Re: Spelling out the "draining the swamps" theory
Posted by
dalek
at
2007-01-14 02:40 PM
Being hugely in debt guaranteees you no1 imperial spot. Owe the bank $100 and its your problem, owe the bank a trillion dollars and its the banks problem. Basic economics really. Only the US status as No1 imperial power allows it to be No 1 global debtor. This is imperial economics 101. You guys really should get a grip on the basics.
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• Re: Spelling out the "draining the swamps" theory a challenge
Posted by
dalek
at
2007-01-14 04:01 PM
Now if the US is all about bringing freedom and democracy to the middle east by the tactic of Inperial war and plunder surely by this logic it should now invade Iran? Point is; will LSP support this new expansion of the war? Including of course the use of nuclear weapons to bring freedom and democracy? Of course, the only way Bush can bring this mad plan to a conclusion will be to shut down the congress and the senate. Will you support this too? |
• Re: Spelling out the "draining the swamps" theory
Posted by
DavidMc
at
2007-01-15 03:09 AM
dalek:
The war is costing the Americans billions so it is not very successful as a plunder exercise. I doubt that the US has the military capacity to successfully invade Iran. Even if it could, it would not be a good idea if it actually weakens rather than strengthens the democratic forces there. |
• Re: Spelling out the "draining the swamps" theory
Posted by
DavidMc
at
2007-01-15 04:04 AM
OK. The discussion of whether US debt is a sign of weakness or strength is now at the tis tisn't stage. Any analysis and evidence for either position would be good.
Perhaps a lesson from dalek in "imperial economics 101" would be a good start. |
• Re: Spelling out the "draining the swamps" theory
Posted by
keza
at
2007-01-15 04:34 AM
dalek writes:
Now you are getting hysterical dalek! We have never argued that draining the swamps will require the US to invade Iran. Take a closer look at what we have been saying, including the fact that the US is a declining superpower and not in a position to invade at will. The logic of their current policy comes from this. Iran is very different from Iraq before 2003. It does have a home grown democracy movement which the authorities have not been able to shut down. Iraq was was very different. The people there were quite unable to move things forward and that would have continued to be the situation for the foreseeable future. If the regime there had collapsed (likely upon Saddam's eventual death) we would have seen either another dictator or a collase into extreme civil war (along with interference from Turkey and other neighboring states). The US is currently blustering a lot about Iran, but that's all it is, as far as I can see. I believe that Bush et al are quite sane and know that the best outcome for them will be for the democracy movement in Iran to take care of the situation there. Things are really stirring in Iran! For example, currently there are over 70,000 blogs, many of which are overtly pro-democracy. And try as it can, the authorities have been unable to stop them. Similarly there is massive access to satellite television which is officially banned - but once again the authorities have been unable to stop this. The US would be crazy to invade Iran under these circumstances (even if it could) Why is it easier for you to believe that Bush is "mad" than to consider the possibility that US policy actually makes sense? This sort of stuff is all over the net and is not so surprising when it comes from people who only consider the surface appearance of events and have never thought to engage in any degree of analysis. But I'd expect people who are actually trying to think a bit more deeply about what's going on to come up with something less shallow. Certainly we are living in strange times and these events are hard to understand but to simply throw up your hands and say that Bush et al are following an insane policy is not enough. How likely is it really that they are deranged? BTW, an interesting article about blogging as a tool in pro-democracy movements can be found here: Blogging Toward Democracy |
• Re: Spelling out the "draining the swamps" theory
Posted by
dalek
at
2007-01-15 02:56 PM
We are in heated agreement about this: Iran is generating a very strong internal democracy movement. As I said in an earlier post you might not like some of the details but it is growing every day and it will have particular Iranian (Persian) characteristics. I think I have a good understanding of what is going on there. The one thing that will put it back is an attack by your neocon mates, determined to bring "democracy" to the "islamofascist swamps" of the middle east. This will force the revolutionary young to rally around the increasingly unpopular leadership. In fact the leadership,have a vested interest in being Bushes worst enemy. The US is in a desperate position in Iraq, despite the best wishes of most Iraqis, the democracy experiment has foundered and has been essentially taken over by Shiite extremists. In my view there was never any other outcome possible, although I did not anticipate the level of nihlistic violence that would ensue. The shiites always had the numbers and the guys in Sadre city were always going to call the shots. All the US can do in Iraq is kill a lot more Iraqis, and make the situation even worse, killing is all the US army knows, that's what it is for.
The reason (in my view) that the democracy experiment in Iraq was bound to fail is that there was no internal basis for it. (there is a massive internal base for democracy in Iran - by contrast). There was no internal base for democracy in Iraq because of the fascist repression by Saddam. As part of he set up institutions such as the Baath party that ruthlessly supressed all opposition. The only "democratic" forces were a bunch of corrupt expats who called themselves democrats. On the other hand the Iranian people are struggling every day to establish democracy in Iran and they are gradually succeeding. Soon they will overthrow the old regime but they have to be careful, tha moment they do your neocon mates will move in and try to impose their expat "democrats" upon the country. If you think that the US is too weak to attack Iran, think of the Gulf of tonkin incident, or the sinking of the Victory by the Israelis in the Gulf of Arabia. I do not think Bush is mad, I use the term as a way aof saying that I think the plan is mad. The US neocons (In particular Kagan , who authored the "Surge") have two options quit and go home, or set the entire ME on fire. To quit would be the biggest set back for US imperialism of all time (probably the end of it). They will not quit. If this means suspending the constitutrion and establishing a state of emergency in the US they will do it. Wait and see.
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• Re: Spelling out the "draining the swamps" theory
Posted by
dalek
at
2007-01-15 03:06 PM
Reply to David Mc
No mate it is costing the US people (remember them?) billions. The billions are going into the pockets of the US multinational corporations (remember them?). Yes a US invasion of Iran will badly weaken the democratic forces there, as if your neocon mates give a shit. They have no option or they lose the empire. |
• Re: Spelling out the "draining the swamps" theory
Posted by
DavidMc
at
2007-01-16 09:53 AM
So, dalek, you agree that the war has not been a good plunder exercise? Plunder is here defined as a net extraction of wealth out of Iraq.
The billions spent on groceries also go into the pockets of US multinational corporations. They'll make and sell anything, the crafty buggers. I don't know how the resources spent on Iraq would otherwise have been allocated, but it seems to me that spending them on the Iraqi revolution can be seen as a a good investment and a redistribution from rich to poor. |
• Re: Spelling out the "draining the swamps" theory
Posted by
dalek
at
2007-01-16 02:43 PM
David, see here where the money gets spent. http://www.commondreams.org/headlines06/0415-07.htm The Iraqis have no proper roads, elctricity, gas or water after 4 years of occupation. The unemployment rate is 60% or more. The money that was allocated has been plundered by Iraqis and Americans alike. The place is a total shambles. "I don't know how the resources spent on Iraq would otherwise have been allocated, You surely cannot believe the above, it's a joke right? Dalek
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• Re: Spelling out the "draining the swamps" theory
Posted by
DavidMc
at
2007-01-16 09:36 PM
No it's not a joke dalek, I support regime change in Iraq with all its messiness and stupidity. Furthermore, the transition out of fascist tyranny would be far worse and more protracted in the absence of US intervention. Of course the Americans could have done a better job but that does not detract from the basic point.
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