• Spelling out the "draining the swamps" theory
• Spelling out the "draining the swamps" theory
Posted by
keza
at
2006-09-07 09:42 PM
This is an attempt by me to spell out the "draining the swamps" argument in one short article. At the moment there's a lot of material scattered both throughout the site and on this forum which covers most of the issues and argues the point in various ways, but so far we don't have a single succinct statement of what we've been arguing. So here's my attempt at a relatively brief summary.
I'd very much appreciate feedback, criticism and suggestions to improve it! keza It
seems to me that right now there is clearly a world wide consensus that Bush
and the neo-cons have got it completely wrong in Iraq.
Those who supported the war (from both the right and the left) are currently quite
isolated. In my view this reflects a deep misunderstanding of the real war aims
- something which is not all that surprising given the mixed messages
coming from the USA (not to speak of its history since WW2). On this site, we
have frequently used the phrase "draining the swamps" 1 to
characterize what we see as the deep change in US policy that has taken
place under the Bush administration This metaphor suggests that you
only eradicate the mosquitoes if the swamp is drained; there's no long-term
point in trying to eliminate them individually or in groups without paying
attention to the conditions that breed them in the first place. The US
is not so much engaged in a "war on terror" as with the forces of reaction and
oppression which have given rise to terror. This has nothing in common the
pseudo-left position of sympathizing, excusing and "understanding" terror.
The
"humanitarian argument" in favour of the war falls increasingly flat
when those who espouse it fail to also stress that what is actually happening
in Iraq is not
simply the toppling of a fascist dictatorship and its
replacement by a democracy but an historically necessary democratic revolution
aimed at triggering change across the entire region. Given the reality
that deep change although joyous and liberating when
successful, is also by its very nature, disruptive and painful, it is
necessary for the Left to make the point
that this change in the ME is one that had to happen sooner or
later. The choices were between leaving the swamp as it is for a while
longer, perhaps leaving it to implode all by itself ( a far worse scenario than
what we are seeing now) or siding with those who have seized the
historical opportunity to make it happen now.
It seems to me that neo-con policy has always been to get this thing going and unleash the changes to the point of no return, rather than to win support for their actual policy. Thus they launched the war with the claim that it was all about WMDs and have continued to duck and weave ever since. This makes sense given the urgency of the task and the minuscule chance of having convinced Congress to fund a war of liberation.
Having
got the ball rolling they can now be fairly sure that the worst that can happen
is a slowing down. There can be no turning back. Even a Democrat president will have no choice but to stay the course. The
mass confusion about what's really going on has now extended to many
progressive left liberals who supported the war.
Both
positions have failed to see that a Palestinian state is now an historical
imperative.
For the US, its old policy of propping up Israel at the expense of the Palestinians has become a strategic liability and it is increasingly evident that they intend to put this right. When
this happens it will rapidly undermine the ability of Syria,
Iran and the
other vicious (but moribund) autocracies in the region to rely on the
Palestinian issue to distract people from their own oppression.
Bush is the first US president to have talked seriously of the necessity for a Palestinian State – and not only that, he has also effectively come out in support of the party of Arafat! At the very same time as creating the impression that he is the most pro-Israel president in history, he has in fact been the first US president to make it quite clear that Israel must withdraw from both Gaza and the West Bank. Despite all the hype during (and in the aftermath) of the recent Israel-Lebanon war, all indications are that the majority of Palestinians in the West Bank and Gaza are in favour of a cease-fire with Israel and that there is broad agreement with the "Prisoner's Document". At the same time, most Israelis want peace with their Palestinian neighbours. "Victory" against the Palestinians has now been cleverly reframed by Olmert (and previously Sharon) as "an end to terrorist attacks on Israel" rather than a continuation of its hegemony over the occupied territories. As in Iraq, the end-game will be complex and many of the moves along the way unclear. But if we interpret events in the light of historical necessity rather than falling for the rhetoric emanating from both sides the trend is clear.
Materialist analysis starts with real world conditions and attempts to discern what this makes possible – how we can push things forward in order to win. The reactionary idealism of the pseudo-left ignores the real world because it is driven by a backward- looking victim mentality with a primary focus on complaining about how bad things are rather than with how to change them. On the other hand, the more positive idealism of progressive left liberals is at least oriented toward support for democratic change. However that is not enough. Idealism in all its forms takes as its starting point ideas about how we would like the world to be rather than how the world can be. In the current situation it is floundering both in the face of the current chaos, sectarian violence and strong influence of backward Islamist ideology in the new Iraq - and with regard to the related question of solving the Israel/Palestine issue. 1 Draining the swamps: We took this expression right out of Chomsky's mouth. See this discussion which contains a link to some interesting (2003) correspondence between Chomsky and one of our members. |
• Historical necessity
Posted by
keza
at
2006-09-08 03:42 AM
Below are some paragraphs I deleted when drafting my article on draining the swamps. (at the time I couldn't see how to fit them in without making it too long and convoluted).
I was thinking - while trying to write it - that we need to focus more on the essentially idealist world view that is characteristic not only of the pseudo-left but also apparent n the current confusion of many progressive left liberals. Bush et al have recognised the historical necessity that faces them in this era and have based their policies on that reality - in this sense they are materialists(!) rather than idealists. As a ruling class they would be mad to ignore reality of course - any ruling class that did that would be doomed(in the quite short term). However they continue to talk (as they must, given their class interests) in idealist jargon. - eg maintaining that what drives them is a committment to the abstract ideals of "freedom" and "human rights" rather than their own class interests. This has been a characteristic of every bourgeois revolution of course and is no reason for opposing it rather than grasping the opportunity. Anyway, below are the deleted paragraphs. It's not sufficient to argue that fascism, reaction,
oppression (etc) are bad and should be
got rid of. Even the pseudo- left mouths similar sentiments.
We can see through the pseudos because (unlike progressive liberals of the pro-war
left) they in fact have chosen to lend their support to the status
quo. Those left liberals who stuck to principle and supported In the absence of a more hard-headed materialist analysis it becomes increasingly difficult to make sense of events.
Engels’ discussion of Hegel’s famous remark, “all that is real is rational; and all that is rational is real” provides an excellent account of history as a process of progressive change during which what is actual (current reality) loses its necessity thereby becoming both unreal and irrational. Each historical stage is necessary in so far as it is “justified for the time and conditions to which it owes its origin” but eventually becomes unnecessary and therefore unjustified “in the face of new, higher conditions which gradually develop in its own womb. It must give way to a higher stage which will in its turn decay and perish”. I don’t have the space here for an extended philosophical discussion of historical possibility and necessity but recommend that people follow the Engels link and also take a look at a discussion we had on the LS forum entitled : Hegel and the pseudo left . |
• Great stuff!!!
Posted by
arthur
at
2006-09-08 10:46 AM
Ok, I'm impressed!
|
• article by Norman Podhoretz
Posted by
keza
at
2006-09-18 03:31 AM
This recent article (dated August 7, 2006) by Norman Podhoretz, is well worth reading. Here's a bit of a summary...although I say "a bit of a summary", it has now become very long ..... I grew tired halfway through and began falling back on more and more quotes. Nevertheless it's a lot shorter than the 26 page original article! Basically it confirms a great deal of what we've been arguing on the site but from a neo-con perspective. It's mainly concerned with analyzing splits both between various neo-con groups with regard to "the Bush doctrine" and between the neo-cons overall and the "realist" old Foreign Policy establishment. He starts by saying : In recent months, we have been bombarded with reports of the death of the Bush Doctrine. Of course, there have been many such reports since the doctrine was first promulgated at the start of what I persist in calling World War IV (the cold war being World War III). Almost all of them were written by the realists and liberal internationalists within the old foreign-policy establishment, and they all turned out to resemble the reports of Mark Twain's death—which, he famously said, had been "greatly exaggerated." Nothing daunted by this, the critics and enemies of Bush are now at it yet again. This time, however, their ranks have been swollen by a number of traditional conservatives who were never comfortable with the doctrine bearing his name and who have now moved from discomfort to outright opposition.Podhoretz then goes on to discuss the new conception of terroism as a phenomenen which could not be erradicated by eliminating them individually but required a radical new approach with a strong military aspect rather than the application of the criminal justice system against lone individuals. Moving on to the Palestinian question, he has this to say: Having thus set the foundation for a new American policy in the broader Middle East, the President was left with the problem of how it could and should be applied to the narrower Middle East—that is, the conflict between Israel and the Palestinians. In October 2001, only a month after 9/11, George W. Bush had become the first American President to come out openly for the establishment of a Palestinian state as the only path to a resolution of that conflict.This bit is followed by some rhetoric about the firmness of Bush's stance against Palestinian terrorism: But by June of 2002, he had also arrived at the realization of a glaring contradiction between his own doctrine and his support for the creation of a Palestinian state that would, as things then stood, inevitably be run by terrorists like Yasir Arafat and his henchmen. He therefore added a number of conditions to his previously unqualified endorsement of Palestinian statehood:The talk about resolving "the contradiction" by calling on the Palestinians to reject terrorist methods is a clear reframing of ths situation to one of "opposing terror" rather than continuing with their old policy. In the context of the broader draining the swamps strategy it is clear that this is a real policy reversal: In order to eliminate terrorism we realize that we must take steps to get rid of the conditions that breed it. In this case tha lack of a Palestinian State. Podhoretz then moves on to take issue with those who claim that by the time of his re-election at the end of 2004, "setbacks in Iraq" and a fear of losing support had caused Bush to rethink this radical policy and begin to back away from it. He quotes from Bush's Second Inaugural Address (Jan 20, 2005): With all this ringing in his ears, Bush defiantly took the oath of office for a second time with a restatement of the doctrine bearing his name that was even more eloquent, more forceful, and more unequivocal than the great series of speeches in which he had originally promulgated it three years earlier.
"On what basis", Podoretz asks. "is it being claimed all over the place that he no longer believes in either (his policy's) soundness or its viability?" Referring to an article published in Time magazine("The End of Cowboy Diplomacy", July 17, 2006), which made the claim that Bush had learnt his lesson and had now retreated from "unilateralism" to a milder "multilateral" and diplomatoc approach, Podhoretz argues that this sort of 'analysis" reveals a complete lack of understanding of the complexity of the new policy. It was never a policy ruling out action of a non-military nature and quite necessarily heavily invested in multi-layered wheeling and dealing. More interestingly Podhoretz moves on from the Time article to provide a bit of a review of where various conservatives of the US foreign policy establishment now appear to stand. First he mentions Philip Gordon of the Brookings Insitution who has argued that "The budgetary, political and diplomatic realities that the Bush team tried to ignore have begun to set in". Gordon seems to be of the opinion that despite some successes in Iraq the consequence of this is "the reversal of the Bush revolition" and a "return to realism". Charles A Kupcahn and Ray Takeyh of the Council on Foreign Relations have made the claim that the Bush "ideological hubris and political incompetence have only succeeded ins etting the region ablaze. They yearn for a return to the good old days of "clinton's diplomacy". Then there is "traditionaliat conservative", George Will (a columnist) who "fears that tehre is enough life left in the Bush doctrine to continue doing damage" and who has singled out Condi Rice for being foolish enough to consider "today's turmoil preferable to the Middle East's 'false stability ' over the past 60 years". According to Podhoretz the views of Will are very similar to those of Brent Scowcroft (Bush snr's National Security Adviser) who contended "that you cannot with one sweep of teh hand or the mind cast of thousands of years of history". In answer to both Will and Scowcroft Podhorezt replies:
Interesting how he ignores previous US policy in the region.... William F Buckley is the other "major traditionalist conservative who has, after much hesitation decisively given up on the Bush doctrine. Buckley is convinced is hat these policies have failed to pass "the acid" test of Iraq. Podhoretz goes on to say that he is
Another group of conservatives also agrees that Bush has somehow lost his nerve, but these conservatives have taken the position of arguing for the urgency of military action against Iran. Here Podhoretz refers to demands by William Kristol for "an
immediate military strike against Iranian nuclear facilities. Going all
the way, Kristol denounces the administration’s delay in launching such
a strike as a form of appeasement". He notes that there is indeed "a split" among the neo-cons on the desirability of military action against Iran. Richard Perle has accused Bush of "blinking" on Iran, arguing that Bush has "beaten an ignomonious retreat by agreeing to enage in talks with Iran on its nuclear program" thereby betraying the pro-democracy movement in that country. Other neo-cons such as Max Boot have raised the same issue with regard to Egypt and others have gone further to maintain the Bush has changed course to the point of "coddling despots" such as the repressive leaders in Russia and China. With regard to North Korea, Nicholas Eberstadt ("a neo con expert on that country) says:
The "consensus" backlash against BushPodhoretz writes: Two extraordinary features mark the consensus that has formed on the death of the Bush Doctrine. One is that it embraces just about every group all along the ideological spectrum, critics and friends of Bush alike: the realists, the liberal internationalists, the traditionalist conservatives, the paleoconservatives, and the neoconservatives. The other extraordinary feature is that the only group that has refused to join in this unprecedented consensus is made up of Bush’s enemies on the Left. Bush the "politician"But according to Podhoretz what these critics just don't understand is that Bush is a clever politician who know what he is doing:
The Middle East has been "unfrozen"I'm just going to stick in another longish quote here... (this attempt at a summary is wearing me out and taking too long...) In maintaining that Bush has done more to implement those principles than might reasonably have been expected, I would recall to the stand two highly credible witnesses on whom I have frequently relied in the past. The first is the Lebanese radical Walid Jumblatt, who had always been violently anti-American, who had therefore opposed the invasion of Iraq, and who had even declared that the killing of American soldiers there was “legitimate and obligatory.” But as he watched a process of change beginning to take hold throughout the Middle East, Jumblatt underwent a change of his own:There's more, following this about the application of the Bush doctrine to other palces such as China, Russia and North Korea. I won't attempt to summarise it except to say that (among other things) Podhoretz makes the point that currently it should be obvious that "the priamry and immediate focus of the Bush doctrine is on the tyrannies of the Middle East and not on every despotic regime on the face of the earth" I'll skip the next bit which about Ronald Reagon (except to say thatPodhoretz says he has now learnt a lesson from (previously) focusing too much on Reagon's "declaratory" policies that as a result repeatedly (and incorrectly) "blasting him for one betrayal after another". This is the conclusion to the article:
|
• Re: article by Norman Podhoretz
Posted by
arthur
at
2006-09-18 09:44 AM
That's quite a comprehensive survey of the evaporation of support for Bush's policies among pretty well all tendencies including neocons as well as paleocons.
I agree with his main point that changes trumpeted as surrender in the face of disaster are in fact prudent tactical moves given the political situation. The situation in Iraq does look pretty grim. However this just makes the war cost more in blood and treasure and take longer - there is no viable scenarion in which any of the enemy factions, who hate each other at least as much as they hate the Iraqi people - could win. The domestic US political situation also looks pretty grim with such overwhelming rejection by "opinion leaders". The consequence looks like a strong Democrat majority in at least the House of Representatives this November followed by lots of "hearings" and attempts at impeachment etc. The issue of war crimes which I was (wrongly) expecting would become salient after the 2004 elections could become salient now. The results of this will be a thoroughly split Democratic party as there is no way its leaders in Congress could deliver what its base wants - a prompt withdrawal from Iraq and Bush impeached, hung, drawn and quartered. That should eliminate any possibility of an anti-war candidate being elected in 2008. Podhoretz doesn't really discuss these issues, which makes it hard to tell whether he's confused himself or deliberately misleading in his treatment of Iran and the Israel/Palestine issue. This is also true of the several neocons he lists whose criticism of Bush is for appeasing Iran. I'm still convinced the focus on Iran is blatant disinformation primarily linked to adapting public opinion to prepare for a settlement between Israel and the Palestinians. A blatant example is this item Bush, Rice To Revive Mideast Peace Process from the New York Sun of September 18, 2006 which "explains" that is necessary to sign European countries up against Iran. Neocons foaming at the mouth for an immediate military strike against Iran helps add a more authentic atmosphere to what would be readily dismissed as absurd if there was any rational analysis going on. However its clear now that many of the people foaming at the mouth about Iraqi WMDs and links to Al Queda actually believed what they were saying and are now in opposition as a result. So its hard to be sure that all the people shouting at Iran actually know its just theatrical. Its puzzling that Podhoretz is not himself joining in if he actually does understand that. On the contrary he has a footnote (4) expressing confusion at the terms of the draft Lebanese ceasefire agreement which had just come out when his paper was written - and the blog "Power Line" he refers to is intransigently against resuming the "road map" peace process as described at the link above. Looks plausible that Podhoretz and the Commentary crew could themselves break with Bush once it does become clear that he really is insisting on Israel reaching agreement with the Palestinians. Less plausibly the neocons shouting about appeasing Iran could also mean what they are saying. However its hard to tell where any of these people are likely to jump in the world of smoke and mirrors they inhabit. One thing one we can feel confident about is that the lack of a left position will become more and more painfully obvious over the next couple of years. |
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• Re: Spelling out the "draining the swamps" theory
Posted by
arthur
at
2006-09-26 12:59 PM
Hi mason, welcome aboard! I agree with most of your post and will therefore focus on the last part Your last sentence sort of reminds me of the guy in your picture telling the Court that he's still President of Iraq. He isn't and the people replacing him aren't US puppets as the pseudo-left pretends. That's decline. It used to be the case that when the US intervened it was able to appoint a government of by and for the USA. Now it has to hold free elections, which in every case so far are won by parties such that the US previously worked with tyrants to keep them out of power. When the US was not in such sharp decline it actively promoted the "the cauldron of political oppression, religious intolerance, and social ruin in the Arab-Islamic world" because that suppressed communism and later helped in maneuvers against the other superpower, provided cheap oil and was in Israel's interest to be surrounded by backward countries too stagnant to threaten its domination. This policy continued long after it had ceased to provide any real benefit to the US, mainly because you could afford the luxury of delegating your Middle East policy to Israel and nobody but the Israel lobby cared much. This remained true despite the fact it was clearly against your interests for this situation of "oppression transmuted and deflected by regimes with no legitimacy into virulent, murderous anti-Americanism" to continue. Nevertheless, you let it continue until you had no choice but to do something about it after 9/11. There is a "weary" tone even in the words you quote from Krauthammer "It may yet fail. But we cannot afford not to try." That is the voice of decline. The left on the other hand has supported democratic revolution since the Communist Manifesto issued during the 1848 revolutions that ended Europe's "cauldron of political oppression, religious intolerance and social ruin" and we greet its extension to the Middle East with the same confidence in victory that we have always had. We are the people who were being repressed by the regimes you backed. Naturally we support you changing course. Coincidentally I just did a post on the theme that the US is the "last" superpower rather than the "sole" superpower here. When the US was still seeking hegemony it propped up vicious dictatorships throughout Latin America, Asia and Africa as well as the Middle East. Most of the "gorilla" regimes of Latin America have now fallen, as has the Apartheid regime in South Africa, the Marcos regime in the Phillipines, Soeharto in Indonesia etc etc. - all of which were part of the "Free World" led by the US. The advance of democracy corresponds to the decline in superpower status. This also includes the advance of democracy in eastern Europe which corresponds to the complete collapse of the Soviet superpower. Basically being a superpower able to determine the affairs of other nations is inherently inconsistent with democracy which implies that the people of each nation determine their own affairs. Cleaning up the Middle East is long overdue but actually supporting democracy in a region where your only friends have been the tyrants is so radical a departure from the anti-democratic policies that the US has historically been associated with in that region that most people around the world still don't believe a word of it and most of your foreign policy establishment are convinced its sheer lunacy. I believe we are in fundamental agreement about "draining the swamp". But don't forget that this strategy is so novel for the US Right that the Iraq war had to be launched on the pretext that it was about WMDs and disarming Sadaam rather than about democracy. Likewise don't forget that jihadi terrorism was previously financed by the CIA and the Saudis in Afghanistan and the Taliban regime that hosted Al Queda was supported by Pakistan at America's request. Perhaps Israel and Palestine is the clearest example, where you still haven't bitten the bullet that you need to retreat and actually allow the Palestinians to choose their own government rather than being governed by Israeli military occupation because that step, so obviously now essential to US interests in a democratic Middle East, is so clearly a retreat from your previous position that years of preparing public opinion has been required. You are very welcome to join the global democratic revolution rather than continuing to oppose it, likewise your participation in the last war against fascism was very welcome, even though it was not forthcoming until after Pearl Harbour just as the US Right didn't care much about islamo-fascism until after 9/11. But please drop the "power to do what we want" stance. Its very irritating and wildly inconsistent with the attitudes you need to get out of the mess you have got yourself into with that sort of arrogance. Incidentally here's an interesting item from Haaretz supporting the analysis here that the Lebanon fiasco's main significance was to prepare public opinion for an international force to replace the Israeli occupation in the West Bank. Note that it requires an international force, not an "American led" one. This is not because other countries are willing to do what you want but because you no longer possess the power to do what you want and are being required to accept Lebanese and Palestinians doing what they want. |
• Re: Spelling out the "draining the swamps" theory
Posted by
mason
at
2006-09-26 02:50 PM
In your long rant, (for the future I don't need a history lesson) you have yet to explain how we are in decline. . . Somehow, because we removed Saddam from power, and didn't prop up a "puppet government" in Iraq lends weight to our decline as a superpower? I think not! You said: "There is a "weary" tone even in the words you quote from Krauthammer "It may yet fail. But we cannot afford to try" This is the voice of decline. That isn't the voice of decline. That is the voice of caution. The voice of caution that warns against the hubris of thinking we can transform an alien culture because of some postulated natural and universal human will to freedom. You said: "But please drop the "power to do what we want" stance. Its very irritating and wildly inconsistent with the attitudes you need to get out of the mess you have got yourself into with that sort of arrogance." Do me a favor. . .Google: 1. The Unipolar Moment Revisited Krauthammer 2. Democratic Realism Krauthammer After reading both of these articles, then come back here and try a legitimate arguement on the decline of U.S hegmony or our Superpower status.
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• Re: Spelling out the "draining the swamps" theory
Posted by
keza
at
2006-09-26 11:33 PM
Hello Mason, good to see you here.
One issue that comes to mind when I think of the differences between us (leftists) and people on the US Right with whom we currently share a common cause in wanting to "drain the swamps" is that of internationalism. From our perspective we would predict that once democracy and modernity is world wide, nationalism (and separate nations) will be on the way out. I think this has huge repercussions for the last superpower and for the (natural) sense you Americans have of being the centre of everything. I think that living "on the periphary" as we do (here in Australia), we see things somewhat differently from you, although the major factor in seeing the future so differently is that as Marxists we see change as constant. "All that is solid melts into air" ! (famous quote from Marx. ) Haven't got time to write more now. However I do think that continued discussion with people who have such a different world outlook is very worthwhile. kerry |
• Re: Spelling out the "draining the swamps" theory
Posted by
mason
at
2006-09-27 04:20 AM
Hello Kerry, and thank you for your warm welcome! First, I would like to say that I agree with the sentiments written by "my hero" in regards to Australia. If I posted a dead link just google "Why I love Australia Krauthammer" http://jewishworldreview.com/cols/krauthammer062306.asp You said: "From our perspective we would predict that once democracy and modernity is world wide, nationalism (and separate nations) will be on the way out.
Forgive me, and with all due respect, but to me, this kinda talk is just fantasy. Don't get me wrong, I long for the day when the world is at peace. . .A world in which "there will no longer be need for spheres of influence, for alliances, for balance of power, or any other of the special arrangements by which, in the unhappy past, the nations strove to safeguard their security or promote their interests." ~ Cordell Hull, FDR’s secretary of state 1943
But neither I nor my children will see this world. It simply put, is the "nature of man." His lust for power--"to keep it and expand it." We live "In an international system with no sovereign, no police, no protection--where power is the ultimate arbiter" Forgive me, but I'm a realist who just chooses to see the world the way it is verses the way I would like it to be. http://www.aei.org/news/newsID.19912/news_detail.asp
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• Re: Spelling out the "draining the swamps" theory
Posted by
keza
at
2006-09-27 07:00 AM
Mason writes:
Forgive me, but I'm a realist who just chooses to see the world the way it is verses the way I would like it to be.The contrast between us isn't over the issue of seeing the world as it is. It's over seeing what current reality makes possible. It is the pseudo left which demands that the world be the way they would like it to be (and pay no attention to reality). My view is that we need to see the world the way it is in order to see what can happen in the future - and how we might have an impact on that. Obviously not everything is possible, the future flows out of the present (and is constrained by that). As far as US policy in te Middle East is concerned it makes real world sense that their policy should be one of draining the swamps. The pesudo-left doesn't believe this because they haven't examined the reality faced by the United States and seen that it is actually in US interests to spur on the democratic revolution there. The article that you linked to by Krauthammer does make a case for this and is good empirical evidence that US policy really is to drain the swamps. When I get some time I'll say a bit more about it (the article). The following is a very cursory comment The idea (expressed by Kruthammer) that the "natural" state of the world is a "Hobbesian one" and that therefore we need a superpower like the US to act as world policeman (a policeman driven by "the will to freedom") is one I disagree with. Although I believe that the US is currently geuninely intent on democratizing the Middle East (and I support this of course), I think it's idealistic (in the sense of not seeing the world as it is) to see the US as having always been "on the side of the angels". What we are seeing is a change in US policy driven by a recognition that they can't continue being world policeman. And that is a sign of being a declining superpower. I know you will come back and disagree with me on this, and that's fine. I'd rather conduct this argument over a series of messages than rave on for a long time in just one message (and besides I'm tired. It's late here!). So I'll just touch on things lightly for now As far as "human nature" and the "Hobbesian universe" is concerned. I don't think human nature is static. People who live in modern democratic societies have very different ways of behaving from people living in backward swamps such as the Middle East. It is the material conditions of human exisence which largely determines what they are capable of. As these conditions change, so do people (which is why it makes such good sense for the US to drain the swamps). I'll stop here for now - except to say that I also read your other link (about the Australian "national character"). I enjoyed some of it! I think it may be true that we Australians are a particularly irreverant bunch (some of which you may experience on this site!). It may have something to do with our convict origins. But it was also a rather romantic view of "the tough Aussie larrikan". While I agree with Australia being part of the coalition of the willing in Iraq, I certainly didn't feel the same way about our participation in Vietnam. Many Australians felt the same way as me and (irreverantly) rejected what they saw as our government just doing US bidding and participating in a war of aggresion against the Vietnamese. A lot of the opposition to the war in Iraq now is an (unthinking) hangover from that time. People all round the world now resent the role of the US as world policeman - which is why the neo-cons have (sensibly) worked out that they can no longer play that role. What they are doing in the Midde East is therefore something very different. And in my view is a (good) sign of being a declining super power. They have sensibly given the Iraqis genuine self determination. A gobalized, fully democratic world will be a very different world, opening up a wide range of options that have never before been possible. I think it will bring about deep changes in the human psyche which in my view is not set in stone. Anyway, we can continue this debate. I don't believe I have presented any knock down arguments! Just hoping to open up discussion on points I have touched on. Let me say again that I am very glad to have a few right wingers to discuss these things with. It is very refreshing to have different people to debate with. It can only sharpen us up. kerry |
• Re: Spelling out the "draining the swamps" theory
Posted by
mason
at
2006-09-27 02:39 PM
Kerry writes:
MY SUPERPOWER ARGUEMENT AND THE "ON THE SIDE OF THE ANGELS ARGUEMENT: But we are the worlds policeman! The E.U. 3 were in negotiations with Iran for 2.5 years to give up it's nuclear ambitions. 3 months ago, Tehran refused, broke the seals, and resumed uranium enrichment. Entering negotiations carries with it the responsibility to do something if they fail. The E.U. 3 understood that when they took on Tehran 2.5 years ago. So after acknowledging their obvious failure, and not wanting to live in range of a nuclear tipped Iranian missile, they come "hat in hand" to Washington to have us take up their failed talks with Iran.
It was American jets that were patrolling the no-fly zones. It was American power that removed Saddam's army from Kuwait in the 90's, and from power 3 years ago. The Russians (at the height of their empire) tried for years to get into Afghanistan. They were stopped "dead in their tracks" and forced to retreat. At a distance of 8,000 miles from our shores we routed a hardened enemy favored by geography and climate in the "graveyard of empires" in just 100 days! And if that still isn't enough, check this out http://www.politicalgroundzero.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2252 This also lends weight to our being on the side of angels!
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• Re: Spelling out the "draining the swamps" theory
Posted by
keza
at
2006-09-28 06:05 AM
Of course the US is still a mighty power militarily - and also culturally and diplomatically.
(and by the way, unlike the pseudo left I see the American cultural influence as more positive than negative) My argument is that the US has been forced to switch policies because it had no choice (hardly an indication of strength, despite its obvious military superiority). I re-read Krauthammer's article today and think he gives quite a good account of neo-con policy (which he prefers to call "democratic globalism") and the way it compares to the more shortsighted and narrow positions of those who doubt (or oppose) it. He's very clear that it is now in US interests to push for democracy wherever possible. EG Moreover, democratic globalism is an improvement over realism. What it can teach realism is that the spread of democracy is not just an end but a means, an indispensable means for securing American interests. The reason is simple. Democracies are inherently more friendly to the United States, less belligerent to their neighbors, and generally more inclined to peace. Realists are right that to protect your interests you often have to go around the world bashing bad guys over the head. But that technique, no matter how satisfying, has its limits. At some point, you have to implant something, something organic and self-developing. And that something is democracy.But what he doesn't talk about is the US role in creating the swamp that they now have to drain. Despite what he says, the US hasn't always been "on the side of the angels". Quite the reverse. This is a deep policy switc that has become historically necessary and it's a clear sign that the US can no longer be the world policeman. It has to "implant something, something organic and self-developing. And that something is democracy." Hostiliy around the world to the US as the world's policeman is very deep. Most people have not yet been able to comprehend this change in policy because they are so used to the old one. (Lving outside the US I may be more aware of this than you ). As the world becomes fully globalized, modern and democratic, the US will become correspondingly less powerful. It has no choice but to accept this. The people of the world are becoming more "grown up" - this is a consequence of modernity and freedom. It opens up the possibility of further deep change in the way the world is run. What peope think, believe (and do) is a product of their material circumstances. Ideas don't drop from the sky. In that sense "human nature" is not fixed and the "hobbsian universe" is not something that will last forever, as the world changes, so do people. Every system that has existed so far has eventually been superceded by something new and radically different . I think the same is true of the current unipolar world. As well as looking at the world as it is and being realistic about that (which is what leads me to support current US policy) we have to use our knowledge of this current reality to look at where it is going. And I think that does suggest that the last superpower is actually getting weaker, rather than stronger. It simply does not have the freedom to behave as it used to, its choices are quite constrained. |
• Re: Spelling out the "draining the swamps" theory
Posted by
mason
at
2006-09-28 09:02 AM
Kerry wrote: "But what he doesn't talk about is the US role in creating the swamp that they now have to drain. Despite what he says, the US hasn't always been "on the side of the angels". Quite the reverse."
This is a little vague. Can you be specific in how America created "the swamp?" |
• Re: Spelling out the "draining the swamps" theory
Posted by
keza
at
2006-09-29 05:48 AM
Yes, I agree it's too vague and unfortunately I haven't got time to jump in and write a detailed response tonight. Hopefuly someone else will fill the breach in the meantime... Meanwhile, you might be interested in reading a (2003) exchange between one of our members and Noam Chomsky. It won't properly answer your question as to how America created the swamp but is interesting background material on why we see things so very differently from people like Chomsky. You can read it here. (It also explains the origin of the "draining the swamps" metaphor) (note also another brief message from me on a proposal for a united front between right wing and left wing supporters of the war for democracy in the Middle East) |
• Re: Spelling out the "draining the swamps" theory
Posted by
youngmarxist
at
2006-09-29 08:46 PM
Mason, I am going to have a go at writing something in response to you. May take a few days, as I'll have to get a fair bit of info together, and will be taking care to make it very different to the usual sneering stuff I am sure you have heard many times before.
That doesn't mean it will be comfortable reading for you, but it should be worth reading, since I'm not interested in the usual: a) ridiculous lampooning of President Bush as either clinically insane or stupid. b) Pretending that everying bad that happens is a 'CIA conspiracy' (or whatever) c) racist disdain for the intelligence and sense of the US people that the pseudo-left (and the reactionary Right in the English-speaking world and "Old Europe") like to indulge in. etc... I'm thinking of looking at Guatemala, Iran, Israel, Chile and, yes, Sadaam's Iraq - some of the places where bad things have been tolerated by the rulers of the USA. Might be a series of posts over a few days instead of one big article. I've had skim of Krauthammer, so will go over him properly. At first glance I disagree with the 'fit of absentmindedness' theory of US economic and financial power. The US rulers very deliberately used their dominant position in the post WWII settlement to force their brand of capitalism into anywhere they could. In particular, US financial dominance creates enormous resistance, to big public spending by any government. I've had a look over the link you posted to your thread, and will try to take up some of your points in the reply as well. I'll also be discussing the enormous vitality of American culture, and the strength of the intellectual drive to explore and invent in US culture. For a start, obviously this interweb thingy that we're using right now. |
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• Re: Spelling out the "draining the swamps" theory
Posted by
mason
at
2006-10-01 04:43 PM
I new I would hear the blissful sound of crickets!
"I'm thinking of looking at Guatemala, Iran, Israel, Chile and, yes, Sadaam's Iraq - some of the places where bad things have been tolerated by the rulers of the USA."
I'm not really interested in the things we "tolerated" I'm looking for how we (America) "created" the "swamp" that we all come to know as the Middle East |
• Re: Spelling out the "draining the swamps" theory
Posted by
youngmarxist
at
2006-10-02 08:30 AM
One of the ways the USA has helped to create the swamp is by being on the side of dictators and opposing many popular movements.
For instance, in Iran in 1953, Prime Minister Mossadegh was overthrown by a coup that was planned and led by the USA and the UK. There were at least two major issues that led the USA and UK to want to overthrow Mossadeq - in 1951 he had nationalised Iran's oil, angering the British in particular. The CIA report also states a fear that he was too close to the Tudeh (Communist) party and may well fall under Russian control. The best way to study this is to look at the declassified report from the CIA, which describes the planning and sucessful execution of the coup. The draft of the operational plan of the coup can be found directly here (PDF file). This is appendix B if you go through the main index. The document describes how the Shah (the same one who was overthrown in 1979) would be manipulated: To play his role the Shah requires special preparation. By nature a creature of indecision, beset by formless doubts and fears, he must be induced to play his role, and this role must involve a minimum of affirmative action and cover as brief a period as possible. Incidentally, General Schwarzkopf (father of the one who gained fame in Operation Desert Storm) was the US military representative who played a large role in the coup. The draft says that c) As long as Mossadeq is in power, the country will get no new financial aid from the United States, and indeed present aid may be slashed. So what we have here is officers of the US Government deciding who will and who will not be the head of government of a sovereign country, and deciding how to manipulate the head of state to get what they wanted. Mossadeq was very popular after having nationalised Iran's oil. The coup against him was seen by many in the Middle East as proof that the USA would destroy any popular movement that got out of line. After the coup, the Shah's secret police, SAVAK, destroyed all opposition whenever it could. This is exactly what we mean when we talk about creating swamps. Iran became a country where to speak of opposition to the government meant you were in mortal danger. Democracy was crushed and people were taught that they should stay in their place, or be killed. The case of Iran is the first example of a swamp created by the USA. The knock-on effects are still with us today. As far as my use of the word 'tolerated' goes, I'm trying to be polite and not just shove anti-US propaganda down your throat. So sometimes I might understate my case. And yes, you might have to wait a few days for each example. I have to work and maintain a social life, so I can't always respond quickly. I am, however, interested in having a proper discussion about this, and would appreciate it if you would realise that, and not imply that I have abandoned the discussion ('blissful sound of crickets') when I take a few days to reply (as I already said would be the case). What are your opinions about the 1953 coup in Iran? Do you agree that this would create part of an undemocratic swamp? |
• Re: Spelling out the "draining the swamps" theory
Posted by
mason
at
2006-10-02 05:44 PM
How did I know you would bring up the 1953 coup. . .Yes we were involved. But our involvement was to stop the spread of Communism, pure and simple. Is this the sole reason Iran is a failed state today? Is it the sole reason every nation (except Israel) is a 3rd world country? Our involvement in 1953 can't be blamed for the massive "swamp" that makes up the Middle East in the year of our Lord 2006.
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