• The Nature of Work
• The Nature of Work
Posted by
youngmarxist
at
2006-04-15 11:47 PM
A genuine worker's voice at waiterrant.net
This is hilarious and also very important. Its a site by waiter in NYC devoted to detailed, lucid rants about stupid, arrogant customers and how they make life harder for him. There are lots of comments, most supportive, and a very low rate of flaming and abuse. Some people blather on about 'you're working in customer service, you know what to expect?' but they are mostly ignored. This is how many workers even in the privileged Western world feel. It's a problem they would like solved. I've found another site as well - not quite as good but still worth a look - Stupid Customers and our problems with them. I thought both these sites were hilarious and so true - I have seen so much of the sort of stupidity they talk about. Cheers David |
• Re: The Nature of Work
Posted by
keza
at
2006-04-16 03:41 PM
David, I don't think this really hits the nail on the head about the nature of work under capitalism and why we need a new system.
I think the discussion at waiterant.net (and in this article) is more about hang-over feudal attitudes in modern capitalist society. Of course it ties in with the reality that under capitalism there' are a high number of boorish arse-holes and selfish social climbers who like to show off their stuff to people they view as subordinate to them, but I don't see that it homes in on the essential nature of work under capitalism. Indeed the whole tone of the article is that a good CEO is the type of person who treats waiters "properly" (And note how the article sees generous tipping as an imprtant part of "proper behaviour. Although I realise that even here in Australia tipping is now the norm, it's an inherently fuedal practice allowing bosses to pay a lower base wage and forcing waiters and others in similar "subordinate", servile positions to act nice even when they don't feel like it just in order to get paid enough). The essential issues regarding work in modern capitalist society revolve around the reality that 99% of people "just work here" in exchange for what is basically a small subsistence payment. Sure what is meant by subsistence has had to change since the time of Marx, so workers do have a substantially higher standard of living than they did in the 19th century, but it is still as true as ever that people work in exchange for being given what is essentially "a living wage". I think that it is the contradictions arising from this which we need to focus on. I suggest reading something that Marx wrote in 1847 : Wage Labour and Capital. How relevant do you think it is to today? |
• Re: The Nature of Work
Posted by
youngmarxist
at
2006-04-17 04:50 AM
I realise that there is more to what we need to understand than just this. I will read the link to Marx and give you my answer to your question.
But I do think that this is the daily reality for even the more well-off white collar jobs and so on. When you look at the size of the comments box you can see that he really strikes a chord and that these are the sort of problems that people would like to see changed. Cheers David2 |
• Re: The Nature of Work
Posted by
keza
at
2006-04-22 11:47 PM
I think that Wage Labor and Capital makes a good starting point for discussing some of the issues around work under modern capitalism.
Engels' introduction should definitely be read first rather than skipped over because he gives a nice clear explanation of why it is necessary to understand that what workers sell to their bosses is not their labor but their labor power and how this creates the surplus value which is the real source of profit. Its a widespread belief of course that Marx has turned out to be wrong. Most people believe that Marx predicted that capitalism would lead to the greater and greater impovershment of the working class in absolute terms. So when they look at the wages and conditions of the modern working class and compare them with Marx's time, they see this as empirical evidence that Marx got it all wrong. However Marx was talking about relative impoversishment. Notions such as "subsistence", "poverty", "want" and "need" can only be defined relative to what is actually possible. People today have wants and needs that were not dreamed of in previous eras. The dreams of people in one era are different from the dreams of people in a different era - what we would define as "subsistence" now is quite different from the notion of subsistence 150 years ago. Today, many workers own a house and go on overseas holidays - but these little "luxuries" are still just part of the basic subsistence package provided in return for hiring out their labour power on a daily basis. The productivity of labour has increased enormously and along with that the definitions of "poverty" and "subsistence" have changed. What hasn't changed is that the working class still produces everything - ie all value is created by labor, but only a minuscule amount of the value produced is at the disposal of those who produce it. Life still begins after work. Marx wrote: And the labourer who for 12 hours long, weaves, spins, bores, turns, builds, shovels, breaks stone, carries hods, and so on – is this 12 hours' weaving, spinning, boring, turning, building, shovelling, stone-breaking, regarded by him as a manifestation of life, as life? Quite the contrary. Life for him begins where this activity ceases, at the table, at the tavern, in bed. The 12 hours' work, on the other hand, has no meaning for him as weaving, spinning, boring, and so on, but only as earnings, which enable him to sit down at a table, to take his seat in the tavern, and to lie down in a bed. If the silk-worm's object in spinning were to prolong its existence as caterpillar, it would be a perfect example of a wage-worker. We only need to change the "12 hours" to "8" (and the job descriptions somewhat) and this is just as true today as when Marx was writing. |
• Re: The Nature of Work
Posted by
DavidMc
at
2006-04-23 12:27 AM
Here is the section from my book-in-progress, on how capitalism is changing the nature of work. The emphasis is on how irksome and menial work is being progressively eliminated and that an increasing proportion of the workforce require a post-secondary education: Capitalism Outgrows ItselfNow let us look at the rich or developed countries. In their case mature capitalism is creating the groundwork for its successor, a far more dynamic and enjoyable economic system where the means of production are collectively owned by those who do the work. Capitalism does this because the machines that result from capital accumulation not only create increasing abundance but also make work less and less like work and more and more like an activity that could be performed for its intrinsic value. Under such conditions, the claim that we need profit driven capitalists controlling the means of production and forcing us to work for them begins to look increasingly frayed. And as we will discuss shortly, the combination under collective ownership of self-motivated and highly accountable workers and production for use rather than profit would ensure a far greater rate of economic progress than capitalism. Our greatest achievement so far in taking the work out of work has been to eliminate a lot of the really hard and dangerous jobs. These include swinging a pick and shovel as they used to do down the mines, and in the construction of buildings, sewers, drains, roads and railways; and also lifting heavy loads in manufacturing and transport. At the same time there has been a large increase in the proportion of people with professional and managerial jobs. In the U.S.A., over 30 per cent of workers belong in this category. This includes teachers, workers in business and financial operations, healthcare professionals and managers who each comprise between 4 and 5 per cent of the workforce. The expansion of this kind of work is also reflected in the increasing education levels. In the U.S.A. 29 per cent of people aged between 25 to 29 years in 2004 had a Bachelors (4 year) or higher Degree.[1] In 2003, 38 per cent of 18 to 24 years olds in the U.S.A. were enrolled in Degree granting institutions[2] while 57 per cent of 25 to 29 year olds had completed at least some College.[3] In the same year just over 40 per cent of Americans in their 30s and 40s had been enrolled in a career or job related part-time or short course.[4] It is true that a lot of routine and menial work still remains. However, it is not hard to envisage much of it disappearing over the next quarter century. Most factory work will vanish once we develop a new generation of robots that can do finicky assembly work. These will need to be better able to distinguish between different kinds of objects and find them wherever they are rather than simply being preprogrammed to pick up something from a particular location. Then they will need the dexterity of the human hand to manipulate and assemble these better understood objects. At the moment robots are mainly confined to fairly simple tasks such as spot welding, spray painting and moving things around. Likewise, most of the unskilled jobs created with the expansion of the retail and hospitality sectors will go. Virtual shopping will be a big job killer in retailing. Web sites will get better at graphically displaying their wares and become easier to use. Customers will be able to make better choices as they access third party information about the product and its competitors, and the prices being offered by other retailers. Perhaps shoppers will be able to upload a body scan to on-line clothing shops which can then display a virtual ‘you’ wearing different garb. This will give you a much better idea of what you will look like. You can ensure the best off the shelf size or even ensure a perfect fit through an alteration service or one-off production. Online grocery orders will be filled at a warehouse rather than a supermarket by shelf picking machines. The boxed groceries will be either picked up at local centers by the consumer or home delivered. On-line shops will get better at displaying their wares on their web sites. Labor can also be reduced in conventional shopping with the addition of in-store computers providing information about products to customers and automated check-outs. Bar service and coffee making can already be provided without humans. The machinery just needs to become cheaper or the labor more expensive. Coming up with a technology to provide automated table service should not be a daunting challenge. You could place an order directly to the kitchen through some electronic device on the table or your own hand-held computer or mobile phone. The order could even be made before you arrive. Maybe machines on the ceiling would lower the food onto your table. In the case of kitchen workers, they are generally doing work that is just as amenable to automation as tasks performed in manufacturing. Many jobs in the office and administrative support category will go. When you need to make an appointment to see a doctor, dentist, physiotherapist, accountant, tax adviser etc. you will do so on-line with the computer software telling what time slots are still available. When you visit an office you will announce your presence to a computer at the front desk which can then provide directions if required. When you put in an order to a supplier for components or materials the information will be sent directly to the robot in the warehouse which will select it from the shelves. At the same time you will automatically receive an electronic invoice which requires no handling or filing. In many cases even the decision to put in the order can be left to a computer which monitors stock levels and rate of usage. Snail mail surprisingly still survives but it must go eventually, and with it will go those responsible for handling and delivering it. The typist is another anachronism who will vanish as executives who cannot type retire and voice to text software improves. Then there is that other dinosaur, the bank clerk, who is there to help the old and confused and will disappear with, if not before, the arrival of electronic money. The jobs we have mentioned make up about a quarter of the total in the United States.[5] The clearly menial and readily automated marketing and sales occupations comprise around 6 per cent of the employed workforce. Almost 5 per cent of all jobs are in waiting, bartending and other food and beverage service occupations. Short order and cafeteria cooks plus dishwashers are just under 3 per cent. The less skilled machine operators and process workers whose jobs are the most amenable to automation make up between 4 and 5 per cent of the employed workforce. The office and administrative support jobs we have referred to make up 5 per cent of all jobs and almost 30 per cent of all jobs in that category. Automation will also impact on more skilled work. However, generally speaking the greater the intellectual content of a job the harder it is to automate and the more likely that at least initially any impact will be confined to the more routine aspects of the task. For example, you still need a surgeon for keyhole surgery but there is less cutting and sewing up. There is some concern that as the average intellectual content of work increases, a significant number of people with less natural ability will be left out in the cold with fewer and fewer jobs that they can perform. This is a rather pessimistic view when we look at what the great previously-unwashed have managed to achieve in recent times and what we can expect in the future. Education levels are a good indicator of the current general achievement. In developed countries school leavers who fail to finish high school are a shrinking minority. In the U.K., Finland, Norway, Switzerland and Sweden the figures is less than 10 per cent while it is in the low teens in the U.S.A., France and Germany.[6] Just living in a modern industrial society seems to make people smarter as they are confronted by increasingly brain nourishing activities. A few examples will illustrate the point: applying for a job, buying a house, dealing with the healthcare industry, organizing your retirement, cutting through the retail hype to choose a new car, home entertainment system or air conditioner, renovating your house, organizing a holiday on the Internet, trying to figure out how a new electronic appliance works, playing video games, putting in a tax return and deciding who to vote for. Even routine jobs can be more demanding. For example, they generally require you to read and write, carry out a range of verbal interactions with other human beings and be able to use a whole range of machines and appliances without special training. IQ tests seem to confirm that people are getting smarter.[7] We can also expect improved performance in the future as a lot of the conditions that cause stunted development change for the better. These include lack of family support, peer pressure to be an idiot and an inadequate education system. We will also benefit from an increasing understanding of human development and what causes learning difficulties. And over the longer term we can expect to see artificial improvements through mind-enhancing drugs, genetic engineering (induced evolution) and brain link ups to computers. [3] National Center for Education Statistics, The Conditions of Education 2005, p. 161. [7] This is called the Flynn Effect. See http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/13.05/flynn_pr.html |
• Narodnism
Posted by
arthur
at
2006-04-23 07:14 PM
Cryptic note. See The Mission of Capitalism from Lenin's Development of Capitalism in Russia. Lenin's debate with the Narodniks, including that work and Economic Content of Narodnism is pretty central to this discussion. (Was looking for a specific quote I recall on how people are becoming more intelligent with industrialization but no time to find it). Strongly recommend close study of that stuff for the work DaveMcM is doing. |
• Re: The Nature of Work
Posted by
keza
at
2006-04-23 09:27 PM
I was interested in what Marx said toward the end of Wage, Labour and Capital about work beoming more menial:
Furthermore, to the same degree in which the division of labor increases, is the labor simplified. The special skill of the laborer becomes worthless. He becomes transformed into a simple monotonous force of production, with neither physical nor mental elasticity.and Machinery produces the same effects, but upon a much larger scale. It supplants skilled laborers by unskilled, men by women, adults by children....This seems to have been to some extent at least a prediction which has not been borne out. It certainly seems contradicted by the "Flynn effect"...that is: Average IQ scores in every industrialized country on the planet had been increasing steadily for decades. Despite concerns about the dumbing-down of society - the failing schools, the garbage on TV, the decline of reading - the overall population was getting smarter. And the climb has continued, with more recent studies showing that the rate of IQ increase is accelerating. Next to global warming and Moore's law, the so-called Flynn effect may be the most revealing line on the increasingly crowded chart of modern life - and it's an especially hopeful one. We still have plenty of problems to solve, but at least there's one consolation: Our brains are getting better at problem-solving.I'd like to see some discussion about this. Marx and Engels did of course also argue elsewhere that capitalism had actually brought people to life, woken them up, literally forced them to think. But this view of things doesn't seem to come across at all in Wage Labour and Capital . The latter article can easily be interpreted as arguing that the rapid increase in the productivity (and therefore degree of exploitation) via the use of technology would have a dumbing down effect. Careful reading of the article makes it clear that Marx was not suggesting that this would lead to an absolute decline in either conditions or wages ....eg the final sentence in the article reads: We thus see that if capital grows rapidly, competition among the workers grows with even greater rapidity – i.e., the means of employment and subsistence for the working class decrease in proportion even more rapidly; but, this notwithstanding, the rapid growth of capital is the most favorable condition for wage-labor. (emphasis added)Nevertheless one still gets the impression that Marx underestimated the capacity for capitalism to make life progressively more interesting and stimulating for the working class at the very same time as it increased its rate of exploitation. |
• Re: The Nature of Work
Posted by
tomb
at
2006-04-24 05:55 PM
I don't think Marx was or wanted to be, a prophet. He was giving an analysis of capitalism from the conditions he lived under and the research he undertook. He could see both the development of capitalism and the decline of fuedalism and so was in a good position to see both the positive and negative side of capitalism. The book is about economics and so it may help to look at it from an economic perspective.
When Marx was saying that jobs would be more menial and boring I don't think he thought that workers would actually become dumber. He could see and wrote about the contrast between the speed and demands of capitalism upon workers compared with feudalism. If we look at the spirit of what Marx was saying, he was writing about the huge potential of capitalism on many fronts including the political front. (the workers were eventually going to run the world) Marx could only assume that workers would get "smarter" as they evolved. He does talk about the social development under capitalism, and Engels talks about workers having to learn how to use the machinery etc. It was not just the discipline of work it was also a social thing , and I think Marx and Engels both pushed this point. The skills lost that that Marx refers to were those of the artisans and peasants. He is not saying these were superior skills necessarily but rather different skills that were lost. They were individual skills and they became redundant, replaced by a higher level of skill - a more social skill but at the same time more boring asnd menial due to the social system (capitalism) that was forcing these changes (a bit dialectical) I think Marx is talking about the alienation of labour. In pre-capitalist society, the people doing the work were closer to the means of production when they performed complete tasks as individuals (rather than just completing small parts of bigger tasks) Capitalism moved them to a more obscure position and consequently made the experience of work more boring and menial. Workers today are more intelligent and better educated and have evolved into more sophisticated human beings ( although haven't found any modern equivilent to Marx and Engels,.... tears tears). The jobs they do are more complex and lead to more exciting developments and change. This however doesn't mean that relative to the far greater intelligence/ability of workers nowadays, their jobs are not more menial and boring. Today's workers are even more removed from the final product they produce and have less chance to realise their potential than the peasants in Marx's time. They are not part of the new development of capitalism with all it can offer them and society - they are highly skilled in most cases with little chance to be challenged in the employment. The peasants found capitalism challenging to a fair degree I would have thought. For isntance, some workers may have science degrees. However may have to either do things like driving taxis or working as lab assistants- very few get to work as actual scientists and if they do then they probably work for a pharmacuetical company that has them researching something which they have no control over and may have no interest in - and on top of this may never see the final product. They are production-line scientists. There are also production-line architects who design mass production houses, teachers teaching to a stupid curriculum etc. There are many white colour workers who would prefer to work outside as labourers or similar. Many workers still dream of the land and when they retire they buy a vinyard if they have the money. Some buy small country properties to work on in their leisure. They do this because their jobs are so boring and they need some stimulation outside of their paying jobs, both physical and mental to be able to relax and feel they have acheived something. The suicide rate in advanced capitalist countries is high - especially among Australian youth. The use of drugs is also a concern. I think these things are related to boredom. The expectations of the modern worker, who has studied to get an interesting job contrasts with the reality that the work in that job is unnecessarily boring and that this is how it is no matter where you work. The chances of making it interesting and having some control are so limited that some decide they would rather opt out. Capitalists are aware of the problem. A number of companies in the 80's decided to introduce team work to increase productivity. This worked in the first instance as the illusion of invlovement meant workers were more motivated. But of course it was a one off increase in productivity which then levelled off. The limitations of team work in capitalism became obvious and if anything, may have bought the workers closer to understanding the real problem. I would also think it is worth pondering Marx's idea of the "diminishing rate of return" (sorry the label may be wrong) |
• Re: The Nature of Work
Posted by
tomb
at
2006-04-25 06:53 PM
....something I left out in the previous post.
Trade unions were set up in the early stages of capitalism to protect/establish workers rights, wages and conditions. They were very successful in doing this and previously played an important role in the political development of the working class movement. Today trade unions are irrelevant and I think the main reason for this is that they are redundant. It is the development of capitalism to a more advanced stage and the menial boring jobs that people now do that has made them irreleveant. Workers in advanced capitalist countries no longer see wages and conditions as their major concern. They are more concerned about the tedious jobs they have to do, and as such they tend to seek shorter hours (and more part-time work or increased holidays) as opposed to simple wage increases. Trade unions as reformist organisations cannot assist workers here and so workers have abandoned them. What is required is a political change to deliver what workers now seek. This is very much in line with what Marx was saying about the incraese in menial jobs and alienation as an inevitable consequnece of capitalist development. It is only be a revolutionary working-class party that can deliver what people want now! |
• Re: The Nature of Work
Posted by
keza
at
2006-04-27 12:11 AM
Yes, I think that trade unions are thoroughly integrated into the system and
consequently workers are not organised. Whereas historically unions
pushed things forward and played an important role in empowering
workers at a grass roots level, now their role is fully within the
system. There's nothing inspirational in them and they have become
increasingly irrelevant because of this. No-one's excited about going
to a union meeting any more.
I gather from what you are saying Tom (and also from conversations I've had with you) that you think that as capitalism has developed the issues around which workers will be inspired to mobilise are no longer the old 'bread and butter' ones but are becoming more "abstract" - people want more freedom, more control over their own lives, more "fulfillment", excitement, stimulation. Telling people that they are being "exploited" because they are only paid a tiny proportion of the value they produce is not as likely to hit a nerve as pointing out that under the current system daily life is so much more tedious and dreary than it has to be (given the huge development in the level of productive forces combined with developments in science and technology). The thing is that currently no one is doing the hard work of conducting any serious analysis of capitalism. in the developed part of teh world. We are stll looking back at the hard work done by Marx and Engels which is now 150 years old. There's nothing wrong with that but we need to begin the job of tying that in with a detailed analysis of what's happening now. No revolutionary party or movement can develop without a clear vision of the future which is based on much more than people like us saying over and over that Marx was right in his predictions of the general tendency of how things would develop. People may be frustrated and unhappy with their lives at present but they will stick with the devil they know (capitalism) until such time as they can see and taste the alternative. Even if capitalism went into a serious crsis it could still rise from the ashes in the absence of people having a real sense of comfidence in a future of their own making. Most people see "communism" as synonymous with the dreariness and lack of freedom of Eastern Europe. We still have no clear idea of what a revolution in an advanced capitalist country would look like. Every attempt to overthrow capitalism and build something different has happened under the enormously adverse conditions of trying to industrialise at the very same time. The odds of success under those conditions were always abyssmal. What people most wanted in those revolutions, - and what motivated them - was a desire for basic security - things like "peace, land and bread" . Although the idea of people running things themselves and creating an entirely new social order was also a driving force i I think this always came second to people just wanting to be safe and have the basic necessities of life. |
• Re: The Nature of Work
Posted by
tgriffiths
at
2006-04-27 07:05 AM
There is a lot here to speak about and not enough time, so I'll mostly confine my thoughts to the previous couple of posts. Tom is right to catagorise unions as a reactionary/status quo force. Indeed, if a pharmacological company could figure out a way to make a 'distilled essence of union' it would make the perfect sleeping pill. I'm not so sure, however, that workers no longer see wages as the key thing. It is certainly true that they also see more 'abstract' concerns like flexibility of hours, job satisfaction etc as very real, in fact, concrete issues and unions have missed the boat entirely on this. But if Melbourne is at all representative, there are large swathes of the mortgage belt where people are really squeezed financially. My partner recently attended a meeting dealing with community responses to family violence, in one of the mortgage belt 'burbs in the west, where a hardened member the constabulary said that the most problems the police where having with family violence were in families caught in mortgage squeezes. Money is still a key issue. But it isn't the only one and this represents a real development. Some time ago, maybe 25 years, a French Marxist called Andre Gortz castigated the French unions for remaining stuck on wages and blind to the need and opportunity to go for reduced hours. It was after reading him that I first understood the sense of Marx talking about workers under communism being able to be a fisherman on a Monday, or whatever, a farmer on a Tuesday, a critic on a Wednesday etc. I'd previously thought this to be a tad romantic until Gortz made me think about time, leisure time as opposed to time we have to work to put food on the table. As I recall, he was arguing for workers to push for a three day week (sounds good to me), on the grounds that this tips the balance in a seven day week in favor of liesure time thereby (largely), freeing workers lives from being controlled/dominated by their job and forcing people to develop more creative ways of using their time. The book btw was Paths To Paradise with the sub title being On The Elimination Of Work. (I think). In fact, this is an aspect of the above discussion on alienation and menial work which has not been touched upon. To a considerable degree all/most work can be alienating and menial, in the sense that Tom was developing above, if that is all you do. All work and no play does end up making Jack a very dull boy because it deprives Jack from developing other aspects of himself, other talents... I'm not happy about the revolutions of Russia, China etc being seen as failures. It seems to me that they were highly successful bourgeois revolutions led by communist parties who were then unable to transform those revolutions into proleterian ones. The achievements in being able to transform those societies inside several decades was breathtaking. It took the English something like 200 years from the revolution of 1640-1660 to the end of the industrial revolution to achieve the same sort of transformation. What recent history does tell us, perhaps, is that it is not possible to make a seamless transition between the bourgeois revolution and the proleterian. Here it is certainly correct to speak of failure (although it was certainly correct to try.) |
• Proletarian ideology
Posted by
arthur
at
2006-04-27 08:11 AM
Cryptic note. The concept of a "seamless transition" from bourgeois revolution led by (nationalist/communist alliance?) (worker/peasant/intellectual?) party/united front/army including (a few/many/lots of) communists along with nationalists and revisionists and fascists in the leadership to proletarian revolution may have a lot to do with "proletarian ideology" in the sense that "ideology" has always been understood by scientific revolutionary theory - ie illusory consciousness. "Scarcely avoidable" as they say |
• Re: The Nature of Work
Posted by
tomb
at
2006-04-27 09:28 PM
I think the mortgage belt might be large in number but percentage-wise am not sure how it stands. My understanding is that something like 30% of women in Australia don’t ever have children, and those that do are older and older each year. This figure increases every year. The trend is now away from the family unit. The 2 party system exaggerates the role of the mortgage belt perhaps. There is developing a mobile and independent workforce who are not restricted by the family unit. These workers often change jobs, not always because the pay is better or the job is that much different , but purely because they are bored with where they are - and also because it is now seen as unusual to stay in the same place for too long. The change in the income and expectations of workers as well
as the structural changes to employment in advanced capitalist countries has
seen a greater independence for individuals who don’t want to put in the time
required to bring up children. They have other priorities. They have a more
responsible attitude here I think. The issues these people have are
probably different from the traditional
struggles workers waged in the past - and the manner in which they wage those
struggles one imagines will be somewhat different also. We should not just expect more of the same I suspect. |
• cryptic expansion
Posted by
keza
at
2006-04-30 04:23 AM
Tom g. wrote: I'm not happy about the revolutions of Russia, China etc being seen as failures. It seems to me that they were highly successful bourgeois revolutions led by communist parties who were then unable to transform those revolutions into proleterian ones. The achievements in being able to transform those societies inside several decades was breathtaking. It took the English something like 200 years from the revolution of 1640-1660 to the end of the industrial revolution to achieve the same sort of transformation. What recent history does tell us, perhaps, is that it is not possible to make a seamless transition between the bourgeois revolution and the proleterian. Here it is certainly correct to speak of failure (although it was certainly correct to try.)I wouldn't characterise them as failures. In my post above I was referring to the fact that people believe that they failed - and also that they tend to look to the dreary state capitalist regimes which took power in Eastern Europe after the defeat of the attempt to build socialism, and say "well if that was socialism/communism, I don't want it". There's a difference between "defeat" and "failure". Clearly those revolutions did succeed in transforming those societies from semi-feudal, stagnant social systems into insustrialised ones - and they did it rapidly and with less pain and suffering than the revolutions led by the bourgoisie. Expanding on Arhur's "cryptic note" - I think it does need to be spelled out so I'm attempting it (he can correct me if I get it wrong)....... Yes, I think that the idea of a "seamless transition" from those semi capitalist/semi feudal societies to communism via a bourgois democratic revolution led by the proletariat was inherently flawed and yet necessary.... That last sentence of mine needs to be read carefully - it's packed with contradiction.... Arthur seems to be making the point that the circumstances of those revolutuions required communists to downplay the reality that the transition could not be seamless. A slogan like "Forward to a modern bourgeois society as a necessary preliminary to developing a working class that can abolish wage labor" would certainly have failed to mobilise many people. So what were communists to do? Leave it to the bourgeoise to push things forward at a snail's pace, or take the chance that was there and go for leadership? In today's circumstances ( advanced capitalism) the idea of a "seamless transition" is still flawed. The whole notion of "socialism" as a transiton phase between capitalism and communism seems fraught with problems. As I understand it, socialism is still a form of capitalism - ie it will still involve wage labor, money and many other features of capitalism. I don't think anyone has much idea what this period would look like and I imagine that such a system could revert to capitalism just as easily as being transformed into communism. In this eventuality it would still be two steps forward and one step back however. History is never a matter of seamless progress. However it would never do to have a slogan along the lines of "let's take 2 steps forward and 1 back". I'm not sure that I freally grasp the idea that ideology, "as understood by scientific revolutionary theory" is always a sort of "illusory consciousness". Can someone expand on that? |
• Ideology expansion
Posted by
arthur
at
2006-04-30 06:09 AM
In the social production of their existence, men inevitably enter Into definite relations, which are independent of their will, namely relations of production appropriate to a given stage in the development of their material forces of production. The totality of these relations of production constitutes the economic structure of society, the real foundation, on which arises a legal and political superstructure and to which correspond definite forms of social consciousness. The mode of production of material life conditions the general process of social, political and intellectual life. It is not the consciousness of men that determines their existence, but their social existence that determines their consciousness. At a certain stage of development, the material productive forces of society come into conflict with the existing relations of production or — this merely expresses the same thing in legal terms — with the property relations within the framework of which they have operated hitherto. From forms of development of the productive forces these relations turn into their fetters. Then begins an era of social revolution. The changes in the economic foundation lead sooner or later to the transformation of the whole immense superstructure. In studying such transformations it is always necessary to distinguish between the material transformation of the economic conditions of production, which can be determined with the precision of natural science, and the legal, political, religious, artistic or philosophic — in short, ideological forms in which men become conscious of this conflict and fight it out. Just as one does not judge an individual by what he thinks about himself, so one cannot judge such a period of transformation by its consciousness, but, on the contrary, this consciousness must be explained from the contradictions of material life, from the conflict existing between the social forces of production and the relations of production. No social order is ever destroyed before all the productive forces for which it is sufficient have been developed, and new superior relations of production never replace older ones before the material conditions for their existence have matured within the framework of the old society. Mankind thus inevitably sets itself only such tasks as it is able to solve, since closer examination will always show that the problem itself arises only when the material conditions for its solution are already present or at least in the course of formation. In broad outline, the Asiatic, ancient, feudal and modern bourgeois modes of production may be designated as epochs marking progress in the economic development of society. The bourgeois mode of production is the last antagonistic form of the social process of production — antagonistic not in the sense of individual antagonism but of an antagonism that emanates from the individuals' social conditions of existence — but the productive forces developing within bourgeois society create also the material conditions for a solution of this antagonism. The prehistory of human society accordingly closes with this social formation. K. Marx, A Contribution to the Critique of Political Economy Ideology is a process accomplished by the so-called thinker consciously, indeed, but with a false consciousness. The real motives impelling him remain unknown to him, otherwise it would not be an ideological process at all. Hence he imagines false or apparent motives. Because it is a process of thought he derives both its form and its content from pure thought, either his own or that of his predecessors. He works with mere thought material which he accepts without examination as the product of thought, he does not investigate further for a more remote process independent of thought; indeed its origin seems obvious to him, because as all action is produced through the medium of thought it also appears to him to be ultimately based upon thought. The ideologist who deals with history (history is here simply meant to comprise all the spheres – political, juridical, philosophical, theological-belonging to society and not only to nature), the ideologist dealing with history then, possesses in every sphere of science material which has formed itself independently out of the thought of previous generations and has gone through an independent series of developments in the brains of these successive generations. True, external facts belonging to its own or other spheres may have exercised a co-determining influence on this development, but the tacit pre-supposition is that these facts themselves are also only the fruits of a process of thought, and so we still remain within that realm of pure thought which has successfully digested the hardest facts. ... Hanging together with this too is the fatuous notion of the ideologists that because we deny an independent historical development to the various ideological spheres which play a part in history we also deny them any effect upon history. The basis of this is the common undialectical conception of cause and effect as rigidly opposite poles, the total disregarding of interaction; these gentlemen often almost deliberately forget that once an historic element has been brought into the world by other elements, ultimately by economic facts, it also reacts in its turn and may react on its environment and even on its own causes. Engels Letter to Franz Mehring, July 14 1893 The necessity for promoting "proletarian ideology" (ie proletarian false consciousness) can be understood esoterically from the last para. PS I don't have time for corrections and expansions either. |
• Re: The Nature of Work
Posted by
tomb
at
2006-04-30 06:18 AM
Socialism is capitalism in transition to Communism. It is this transition that we must talk about. The Russian and Chinese revolutions were not this. They were always susceptible to - or inevitably going to become capitalist.
I think if you are in an advanced capitalist country then it probably wouldn't be able to revert to capitalism as we know it. What might happen is that it may not develop as fast as possible. The capitalist-roaders may be able to stall the onset of communism, as might the socialists! There would be wrong turns etc, but no chance of a full restoration. |
• Re: The Nature of Work
Posted by
arthur
at
2006-05-03 07:03 PM
tomb: There cannot be a revolutionary transition from capitalism to communism if there is no possibility of restoration of capitalism but only the possibility of a "slowing down" of evolutionary progress.
Of course the restoration could not be of capitalism exactly "as we know it" , but this line of peaceful evolution rather than proletarian dictatorship in life and death struggle with real enemies who could win, is certainly revisionism "as we know it". |
• Re: The Nature of Work
Posted by
tomb
at
2006-05-06 06:36 PM
I assume peaceful evolution is like peaceful co existence which also seems a contradiction to me. Is peaceful evolution from the same era, I haven’t heard of it before? I thought evolution was revolutionary. I am not sure if revisionism is not paying religious homage to the word revolution every time one speaks. I think there are certain assumptions about change.
Of course it is impossible to restore something that has not been abolished! The transition from capitalism to communism as I understand it is the working class in control of capitalism and transforming it to communism. The bourgeoisie are of course wanting to regain control and will be fighting to “fully restore” what has passed. They may indeed gain control but I imagine it would be short lived and their ability to turn the clock back would be limited. This is not because there is an inherent mechanism to stop them rather because the revolutionary struggle would be too well developed. All history is about revolutionary struggle This struggle will continue beyond communism.
What concerns me here is the ability to identify friends and enemies both within and outside the party. This cannot be done if one doesn’t understand the material conditions one lives under. It is also necessary to know where we are going. I don’t think it is that simple to do this. In the transition it may be difficult to assess the capitalist roaders if everyone is looking for a “restoration”.
Changing processes in order to change direction can sometimes be subtle. I haven’t thought a lot about the problems in transition but do think that they will be similar to the problems we are having now and will have when there is a party. |
• Re: The Nature of Work
Posted by
arthur
at
2006-05-06 10:42 PM
In the period of revolutionary transition from capitalism to communism bourgeois relations of production based on wage labour would still prevail while political power would be in the hands of a class and party seeking to abolish them.
As long as "the nature of work" is that people work for wages the restoration of "normal" capitalism would remain on the agenda by overthrowing the rule of that class and party. Only when we have actually moved beyond wage labor to a communist mode of production and are engaged in the next revolutionary transformation (at this point overthrowing communism as an obsolete barrier to the further transformation of humanity) would the restoration of capitalism become as implausible as the restoration of feudalism is under fully developed capitalism. There is no possibility of wage labor being abolished in a sudden burst of revolutionary enthusiasm rather than over the course of a historical epoch of transformation. The point is that this epoch begins rather than ends with the working class taking political power and an epoch which begins with taking power can be subject to reversals of losing power. Experience shows the bourgeoisie can rule with both parliamentary and "Soviet" (council) institutions. There is no institutional formula that can prevent forms that once expressed working class rule being turned into forms expressing capitalist class rule. Only the actual political struggle can determine which class holds power. Revolutionary struggle proceeds in waves with high tides separated by periods between high tides (aka "low tides"). It is characteristic of periods between high tides for people to either believe that there won't be another high tide or dream that the next high tide will be irreversible. The bourgeois revolution against feudalism had many reversals over a long period and has still not been completed. There is no reason to expect the proletarian communist revolution to be quicker and smoother. On the contrary, the state of the communist movement today - in a period when the moribund nature of capitalism is quite apparant - strongly suggests that the next big upheavals will involve forces that are completely unprepared and overwhelmingly out-numbered by all kinds of trends that will unite on getting rid of the present system but will gallop off in all directions when it comes to the harder task of replacing it. The revolutionary struggle can only be "well developed" in situations where the counter-revolutionary struggle is also well developed. How else could either of them develop? That implies defeats as well as victories, long term as well as short term, even though the overall direction of history is forward. Coming back to the original discussion, none of the issues about the "nature of work" raised initially in this topic are going to simply disappear until the mentality of wage slaves and "customers" has itself disappeared. The sort of disgruntled workers, bosses and customers described will still be there the day after a political revolution, perhaps waving red flags but still with antagonistic social relations. |
• Re: The Nature of Work
Posted by
tomb
at
2006-05-07 02:48 AM
I am not sure what the state of the communist movement is at the moment. Get back to me in 30 years and I will tell you. I do think it is nowhere as bad as people imagine. The ability for ideas to develop and situations to change quickly means that things may be developing without us knowing. The fact that people don't call themselves communists or don't know that they are going to be communists means it would be difficult to identify coming out of low tide. What makes a good communist? Struggle I imagine. The economic and technological development that has made the working class more sophisticated than ever before has also placed the working class in a better position to actually understand what is going on. Politics cannot exist in a vacuum and if changes are happening at a much faster rate then so is peoples ability think. I think all stages are actually shorter. The massive unleashing of technological forces after a revolution will scare many people. The fact that other era’s took hundreds of years to come to fruition does not mean that this is mandatory. There is no time allocation for revolutions to succeed. The fact that the bourgeoisie took so long and still hasn’t finished the job does not mean that the working class has to be so hopeless. The world is developing at a greater rate now than previously (Africa is the exception). The rest of the world in the next 20 years I think will be developed to the stage of advanced capitalist countries. The majority of commodities may cost next to nothing by this time. The ability to produce with negligible cost is very close. The ability to abolish work is therefore also close. . The longer capitalism lasts then the shorter the necessary transition period! I think the fact that there may be wrong turns as I stated will slow down that transition. This is not saying that it is a smooth ride and who wants one? The ride will be exciting and the life and death struggle will be an interesting challenge, but I doubt if it will or in fact could take 100’s of years. We don’t have 100’s of years! I think there is an attitude that things move slowly and we can pontificate as there is no pressing need to get on with it. I think not. I am not sure if we could lose in the long term and what that would mean. Don’t really like to think about that.
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